[mywarpedmind]

So, I'm not a die-hard Harry Potter fan, so I tended to be a bit more critical. There's a couple of things that were bothering me when I finally decided to try reading the books:

1. I understand Joanne Rawlings was trying to promote the whole underdog feeling, but I have to admit, I thought it was a bit over the top. From the beginning, Harry is adopted by the Dursleys who treat him like crap. I mean, forcing him to sleep in a cupboard, menial labour, verbal and psychological abuse, depriving him of his personal effects and mail? That wasn't just treating him poorly, that's blatant human rights violation. Very Charles Dickens-ish.

Magic or Muggle world, I'm not very impressed with Child Welfare Services, if they missed something like this. And since, Dumbledore and McGonagall knew full well that they'd abuse their own nephew, they're as much at fault. And "they didn't know" isn't much of an excuse, since they must have some kind of real-time monitoring if they can change his address and detect his magic.

2. Let's say 60% of the wizard population are half-blood or muggle-born. And witches have existed among the humans for centuries. It's not as if the magic world has only recently started interacting with muggles. You'd think witches wouldn't be so ignorant of the normal world.

So if Hogwart students spend so much time learning magic, what about everything else? I'm sure basic mathematics, English grammar, physics, and economics would be just as important. I noticed they have Magic History classes, but is that all they know?

3. One more thing: Dumbledore seems to expect blind obedience. He said himself that he should've revealed more. He knew Harry was inquisitive. He knew Harry didn't trust Snape. Did he really believe Harry'd just accept it? Yes, Joanne Rawlings wants to maintain the story's suspense, but in my opinion, poor judgement on Dumbledore's part.

Well now that Dumbledore's dead, everyone thinks Snape is bad. So, assuming that there is an ultimate plan, no one else knows about it. If Harry is gunning for Snape, he's going to waste valuable time and resources chasing a potential ally. Snape'll probably get picked off before the plan ever reaches fruition. Typical left-hand right-hand cliche.

What about Harry's Occlumency lessons? If everyone simply told you to learn Occlumency, (from the guy you trust least, no less) would you simply bend over and take it? I'm sure if they'd simply laid it out for Harry: If Harry can hack Voldemort's brain, Voldemort can hack Harry's brain. Learn Occlumency to safeguard the Order's secrets. Easy as that.

[Synyster]

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2. Let's say 60% of the wizard population are half-blood or muggle-born. And witches have existed among the humans for centuries. It's not as if the magic world has only recently started interacting with muggles. You'd think witches wouldn't be so ignorant of the normal world.

So if Hogwart students spend so much time learning magic, what about everything else? I'm sure basic mathematics, English grammar, physics, and economics would be just as important. I noticed they have Magic History classes, but is that all they know?

most go to muggle schools before going to Hogwarts (when they reach 11) or are home schooled

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I'm sure if they'd simply laid it out for Harry: If Harry can hack Voldemort's brain, Voldemort can hack Harry's brain. Learn Occlumency to safeguard the Order's secrets. Easy as that.

That was the plan, and Snape tells him that it is the plan

[Trussardi]

mywarpedmind, on Aug 16 2006, 12:11 AM, said:

2. Let's say 60% of the wizard population are half-blood or muggle-born. And witches have existed among the humans for centuries. It's not as if the magic world has only recently started interacting with muggles. You'd think witches wouldn't be so ignorant of the normal world.

So if Hogwart students spend so much time learning magic, what about everything else? I'm sure basic mathematics, English grammar, physics, and economics would be just as important. I noticed they have Magic History classes, but is that all they know?

Ones that are muggle-born would most likely have gone to muggle schools before they went to Hogwarts, while those who came from wizarding families seem to have been home schooled prior.

If you notice in the books that some subjects are barely mentioned at all like astronomy yet all students do have astronomy as an OWL test. It makes sense that there might have been other unmentioned classes in english and possibly mathematics as some subjects seem to be very mathematical and all require writing essays.

Physics is something of the muggle world. It tells us that we cannot just make things happen by shouting words while waving sticks about nor can anyone fly in the air by trying to ride a broom. It is something that would I would only think would be in a NEWT-level muggle studdies courses. Wizards that don't plan to have any interaction with the muggle-world don't really need it.

[exile]

Um she's called Joanne ROWLING not Rawlings.

Anyhow- the school subjects one is a minor issue that resurfaces occassionally http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-hog...-education.html Is a pretty neat summary of the situation

[winkie]

mywarpedmind, on Aug 16 2006, 03:11 AM, said:

1. I understand Joanne Rawlings was trying to promote the whole underdog feeling, but I have to admit, I thought it was a bit over the top. From the beginning, Harry is adopted by the Dursleys who treat him like crap. I mean, forcing him to sleep in a cupboard, menial labour, verbal and psychological abuse, depriving him of his personal effects and mail? That wasn't just treating him poorly, that's blatant human rights violation. Very Charles Dickens-ish.

Magic or Muggle world, I'm not very impressed with Child Welfare Services, if they missed something like this. And since, Dumbledore and McGonagall knew full well that they'd abuse their own nephew, they're as much at fault. And "they didn't know" isn't much of an excuse, since they must have some kind of real-time monitoring if they can change his address and detect his magic.

Exactly, very Dickensian. Which was on purpose, as Oliver Twist and David Copperfield are classic coming-of-age novels. There was no one else to leave him with, and while the abuse is very hard, the alternative is death at the hands of Voldemort. Also, if you don't think Child Welfare Services misses this level and far more inhumane treatment of children, you live in a little pink glittery world. Just saying.

mywarpedmind, on Aug 16 2006, 03:11 AM, said:

2. Let's say 60% of the wizard population are half-blood or muggle-born. And witches have existed among the humans for centuries. It's not as if the magic world has only recently started interacting with muggles. You'd think witches wouldn't be so ignorant of the normal world.

So if Hogwart students spend so much time learning magic, what about everything else? I'm sure basic mathematics, English grammar, physics, and economics would be just as important. I noticed they have Magic History classes, but is that all they know?

I agree with you. They are a lot of dim bulbs. Some of it has to be suspension of belief in reading a novel. But there is also a sense that muggle borns choose this new life completely seperate from their old one, and embrace their new culture's ways. Wizards seem to keep close to themselves, also. And Elwes is right (and also funny) physics are kind of useless to the magical. They have their own economic system, apparently, and vocational training appears to be done via apprenticeship.

mywarpedmind, on Aug 16 2006, 03:11 AM, said:

3. One more thing: Dumbledore seems to expect blind obedience. He said himself that he should've revealed more. He knew Harry was inquisitive. He knew Harry didn't trust Snape. Did he really believe Harry'd just accept it? Yes, Joanne Rawlings wants to maintain the story's suspense, but in my opinion, poor judgement on Dumbledore's part.

Not quite. Dumbledore demands trust. He trusts others, and he protects many various people's lives. He has repeatedly demonstrated his commitment to the side of the good, and what he asks in return is trust. The only time Ithat we saw) that he required blind obedience was in the horcrux cave, and he specifically asked Harry to give it. Harry had every opportunity to refuse.

mywarpedmind, on Aug 16 2006, 03:11 AM, said:

Well now that Dumbledore's dead, everyone thinks Snape is bad. So, assuming that there is an ultimate plan, no one else knows about it. If Harry is gunning for Snape, he's going to waste valuable time and resources chasing a potential ally. Snape'll probably get picked off before the plan ever reaches fruition. Typical left-hand right-hand cliche.

Sure. She's not reinventing the novel. This is why there can be more than one action film, or more than one John Grisholm book. The fun is not that it's totally new to us, but to watch the tension as it all works out.

mywarpedmind, on Aug 16 2006, 03:11 AM, said:

What about Harry's Occlumency lessons? If everyone simply told you to learn Occlumency, (from the guy you trust least, no less) would you simply bend over and take it? I'm sure if they'd simply laid it out for Harry: If Harry can hack Voldemort's brain, Voldemort can hack Harry's brain. Learn Occlumency to safeguard the Order's secrets. Easy as that.

Yeah, and Dumbledore admits this was a dumb idea. But again, he asked that Harry trust him. How many times did he have to say that he completely trusted Snape? Dumbledore was also a busy guy, and was afraid of giving too much information to a Harry that contained a Voldy-cam. So it was an attempt to make the best of an impossible situation.

[-Leigh-]

winkie, on Aug 16 2006, 03:37 PM, said:

Dumbledore was also a busy guy, and was afraid of giving too much information to a Harry that contained a Voldy-cam.

Voldy-cam!

I love it!

But, back to the actual thread...

Mywarpedmind: It seems like you're toeing the line between questioning the book and trolling.

I could be wrong, this could just be the way you ask questions and I can understand that, but you might want to lighten up a bit next time.

Just some friendly advice...

[Eternally_yours]

mywarpedmind, on Aug 16 2006, 01:11 AM, said:

1. I understand Joanne Rawlings was trying to promote the whole underdog feeling, but I have to admit, I thought it was a bit over the top. From the beginning, Harry is adopted by the Dursleys who treat him like crap. I mean, forcing him to sleep in a cupboard, menial labour, verbal and psychological abuse, depriving him of his personal effects and mail? That wasn't just treating him poorly, that's blatant human rights violation. Very Charles Dickens-ish.

Magic or Muggle world, I'm not very impressed with Child Welfare Services, if they missed something like this. And since, Dumbledore and McGonagall knew full well that they'd abuse their own nephew, they're as much at fault. And "they didn't know" isn't much of an excuse, since they must have some kind of real-time monitoring if they can change his address and detect his magic.

That whole Dursley vibe of mistreatment was what she was going for probably. To make sure you empathized with Harry. so that you took the protagonist to be Harry, not Draco, or someone else. Also, how would Child Welfare Services know about Harry's mistreatment, considering they didn't know Harry resides in the Dursleys' house, so they wouldn't know to check up on him. As for DD and McGonagall not knowing much, it would look really odd if DD showed up at the Dursleys' house to tell them to treat Harry right, Harry wasn't supposed to know anything about the wizarding world until 11. And would they listen? Really, they're the Dursleys!

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2. Let's say 60% of the wizard population are half-blood or muggle-born. And witches have existed among the humans for centuries. It's not as if the magic world has only recently started interacting with muggles. You'd think witches wouldn't be so ignorant of the normal world.

So if Hogwart students spend so much time learning magic, what about everything else? I'm sure basic mathematics, English grammar, physics, and economics would be just as important. I noticed they have Magic History classes, but is that all they know?

Reading, writing and arithmetic are very basic things. all people need to know these things, wizard or muggle. so my guess is that the students' parents would be responsible for teaching them these things themselves in the wizarding world. Muggle-born students would obviously attend muggle school, since they don't know they're magic yet, and learn these things there.

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3. One more thing: Dumbledore seems to expect blind obedience. He said himself that he should've revealed more. He knew Harry was inquisitive. He knew Harry didn't trust Snape. Did he really believe Harry'd just accept it? Yes, Joanne Rawlings wants to maintain the story's suspense, but in my opinion, poor judgement on Dumbledore's part.

Well now that Dumbledore's dead, everyone thinks Snape is bad. So, assuming that there is an ultimate plan, no one else knows about it. If Harry is gunning for Snape, he's going to waste valuable time and resources chasing a potential ally. Snape'll probably get picked off before the plan ever reaches fruition. Typical left-hand right-hand cliche.

What about Harry's Occlumency lessons? If everyone simply told you to learn Occlumency, (from the guy you trust least, no less) would you simply bend over and take it? I'm sure if they'd simply laid it out for Harry: If Harry can hack Voldemort's brain, Voldemort can hack Harry's brain. Learn Occlumency to safeguard the Order's secrets. Easy as that.

Dumbledore said himself that it was poor judgement on his part not to reveal more in OotP i believe it was

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An old man's mistakes.

Next, I think that Harry will come to his senses soon enough, and realize that Snape is a waste of time to chase. He will probably have to confront Snape in the Final Battle, and confront his problems with Snape then. So i don't think Snape will be that big of a problem in the start, but at the end, Snape will try to convince Harry of his innocence, but Harry being Harry won't believe him without some piece of evidence that will smack him upside the head, hard, before he realises Snape's good. Something like a memory from Snape, or some kind of screaming war in which Snape reveals some secret Harry wasn't supposed to know. Also, about the occlumency, DD didn't want Harry to know about this whole Harry, Voldy brain-entering thing because, knowing Harry, he would assume Harry would want to keep doing this brain entering thing to find out all he could about Voldy's operations, not thinking of the fact that Voldy could come into his mind as well, and see the Order's plans and Dumbledore too. So DD thought it best to keep Harry in the dark about the real reason for his Occlumency lessons. And, to answer your question about simply bending over and taking occlumency, yes i would. The people who wanted me to take it, obviously had my best interests at heart, and were obviously keeping the real truth about why they wanted me to take it for a good reason, so i'd trust them and take it, and try my best to succeed at occlumency for them. I wish Harry would've done that, but he just didn't even apply himself to it.

[mywarpedmind]

oh, well then, my apologies for ruffling people's feathers. I do lighten up, I'm just very blunt. Very well, I withdraw my observations. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a cute delightful little story, but I found it very childish, like Dr Seuss or Roald Dahl, and I've simply been reading them because my friend's "aggressive" recommendation.


[quote]
Reading, writing and arithmetic are very basic things. all people need to know these things, wizard or muggle. so my guess is that the students' parents would be responsible for teaching them these things themselves in the wizarding world. Muggle-born students would obviously attend muggle school, since they don't know they're magic yet, and learn these things there.
[quote]mm, yes, i agree, they are very basic skills, and they dictate whether or not you get into univeristy via the diploma exams. But I hardly think being taught up until the age of eleven would prepare you for future careers. They may now be taught within the school's curriculum as someone said, e.g. Arithmancy = Arithmetic, but you notice that you don't have to take it if you don't want to?


Dumbledore said himself that it was poor judgement on his part not to reveal more in OotP i believe it was
[quote]An old man's mistakes.[/quote]

Next, I think that Harry will come to his senses soon enough, and realize that Snape is a waste of time to chase. He will probably have to confront Snape in the Final Battle, and confront his problems with Snape then. So i don't think Snape will be that big of a problem in the start, but at the end, Snape will try to convince Harry of his innocence, but Harry being Harry won't believe him without some piece of evidence that will smack him upside the head, hard, before he realises Snape's good. Something like a memory from Snape, or some kind of screaming war in which Snape reveals some secret Harry wasn't supposed to know. Also, about the occlumency, DD didn't want Harry to know about this whole Harry, Voldy brain-entering thing because, knowing Harry, he would assume Harry would want to keep doing this brain entering thing to find out all he could about Voldy's operations, not thinking of the fact that Voldy could come into his mind as well, and see the Order's plans and Dumbledore too. So DD thought it best to keep Harry in the dark about the real reason for his Occlumency lessons. And, to answer your question about simply bending over and taking occlumency, yes i would. The people who wanted me to take it, obviously had my best interests at heart, and were obviously keeping the real truth about why they wanted me to take it for a good reason, so i'd trust them and take it, and try my best to succeed at occlumency for them. I wish Harry would've done that, but he just didn't even apply himself to it.
[/quote]


Dumbledore may have admitted his poor judgement in keeping info to himself, and yet he still does it. Did he learn from his mistakes?

And I highly doubt Harry'll simply give up on Snape. As he now holds Snape personally responsible for the deaths of his parents, watched him kill Dumbledore, and perhaps, indirectly led Sirius to his death. Harry's dogged Snape for 6 books, I doubt he'll just give up now.

And yes, some people probably would simply take the Occlumency lessons because they were told to. But as you can see, Harry is the type that has to beat his own path. He don't strike me as the type that'd follow orders like a sheepdog. He didn't apply himself because he didn't realize the significance. Well, now he does, as Voldemort hacked his brain. Hindsight 20/20...
Someone said Snape told him he had to learn, but is he really going to listen to anything Snape tells him?

[Eternally_yours]

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mywarpedmind: Dumbledore may have admitted his poor judgement in keeping info to himself, and yet he still does it. Did he learn from his mistakes?

When did DD keep info from Harry after the end of book 5? in book 6 he was completely honest with him.

[mugglette]

mywarpedmind, on Aug 16 2006, 12:11 AM, said:

2. Let's say 60% of the wizard population are half-blood or muggle-born. And witches have existed among the humans for centuries. It's not as if the magic world has only recently started interacting with muggles. You'd think witches wouldn't be so ignorant of the normal world.


So if Hogwart students spend so much time learning magic, what about everything else? I'm sure basic mathematics, English grammar, physics, and economics would be just as important. I noticed they have Magic History classes, but is that all they know?

Muggles went to school till they were 11. Half-bloods were probably taught by their parents or they could've gone to muggle school too. I think it wouldn't really matter if they didn't know much about the muggle world since they probably will be living in the wizarding world their whole life.

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3. One more thing: Dumbledore seems to expect blind obedience. He said himself that he should've revealed more. He knew Harry was inquisitive. He knew Harry didn't trust Snape. Did he really believe Harry'd just accept it? Yes, Joanne Rawlings wants to maintain the story's suspense, but in my opinion, poor judgement on Dumbledore's part.

Dumbledore trusts many people. He also said in the books that he makes mistakes too. but there must've been a particular reason why he trusted Snape so much.